Episode 31 – Sizzling summers: BBQ safety served hot

Edward Bray (00:00)
Hello and welcome to another episode of Science on the menu. I don't know what the weather's like with you right now, but here in Parma, in Italy, where we're recording this, it's hot. And when it's hot outside, summer season, the first thing I think of is barbecue. And that's going to be the topic of our discussion today. 
I'm really happy to welcome from the Food Contact Materials team at EFSA Katharina Volk. Thanks very much for joining us.

Katharina Volk (00:18)
Thank you, Ed, for having me, it's a pleasure to talk to you today.

Edward Bray (00:48)
We're going to be talking about barbecue. It’s something that I feel quite passionate about. I enjoy barbecues a lot with friends and family, and it's something that is very cultural. It's a big tradition in many parts of the world. I wanted to ask you first, what about your relationship with barbecues? Do you have any particular memories that you have about barbecuing?

Katharina Volk (01:10)
Yes, certainly. In Germany there's quite a big tradition also about barbecuing, and in my family specifically, I remember many, many evenings during my childhood with barbecues. We were very well equipped with different types of barbecues, like the ones that you put on the table, rather small ones, charcoal barbecues, the more traditional ones. We even had one that my father constructed himself for the suckling pig. A fun memory that I have of my childhood with parties, with family and friends.

Edward Bray (01:39)
So, you mean he had something ready for an entire pig?

Katharina Volk (01:42)
Exactly, yes.

Edward Bray (01:43)
With barbecue?

Katharina Volk (01:44)
The one that is fired with wood, basically. There was also a little engine, so the piglet would turn. Several hours spent in front of the barbecue until the food was ready.

Edward Bray (01:54)
Nice. For many people, I think food safety is not necessarily always the first thing that comes to mind. They're thinking more about the technique of barbecuing or simply what you want to eat. But food safety is obviously a really important part as well. Let's come on to that. I know that you've brought some things for us. So, let's get them out. What did you bring for us?

Katharina Volk (02:15)
Exactly. Okay, so, I will start with the first tool that I brought here for you. Maybe I will give it over to you, and you will tell me in which kind of context you would use that for during the barbecue.

Edward Bray (02:29)
Okay. So, I see these look like tongs that you would use for, I'm guessing, picking up the meat on and off the barbecue. Is that right?

Katharina Volk (02:37)
Yes. In the material, what do you think it is?

Edward Bray (02:41)
These feel like some kind of plastic material.

Katharina Volk (02:45)
Yes. So, these one specifically, they are made of nylon. It's a type of polyamide, basically. What is interesting about this one that I brought specifically, there's a specific instruction actually for the consumer on it, that gives an indication about the kind of use conditions. This is important. I think it says maximum 230 degrees. This is important for the consumer, to pay attention to when using those kind of tongs, that you pay attention to the temperature.

Edward Bray (03:12)
So, it goes high, but obviously if you're going to really high temperatures then these are the right material, actually. That's interesting. The plastic itself, what food safety considerations come into play with this particular material?

Katharina Volk (03:21)
Okay. So, for this first, item that I brought, this is the plastic material, as I said already before, and it's one of the materials that are actually regulated at EU level. So, this is something that is very relevant for us in EFSA, because, we in the Food Contact Materials team, evaluate substances that are used in plastic food contact materials. So, the industry, they would basically send application dossiers to us following the specific guidelines for food contact materials and our evaluation will focus on two aspects. 
The first one is related to exposure. So, we would check basically studies that indicate how much the substance that is used would migrate to the food. Then, there's the other aspect of the toxicological evaluation. These are the two main aspects of our safety evaluation. Of course, what is very important for the exposure part is the intended use: which kind of food is the substance or the article at the end intended for, what are the use conditions? We saw already before there is something related to time, but could also be temperature, for example. These are the important aspects in the evaluation.

Edward Bray (04:36)
Essentially then, the consumer is protected because there are rules ensuring that the substance doesn't migrate in a quantity that is unsafe for the consumer.

Katharina Volk (04:49)
Exactly. So, as a conclusion of our safety assessment, we would propose some restrictions that could be, for example, a maximum migration limit or a specific migration limit, it is called. We could also put or propose some restrictions in the intended use of the food. So, for example, not in contact with fatty food, not in contact with acidic food, or to point out only specific foods that it is intended for, or also restrictions in time and temperature. So, this is the conclusion of our opinion and this scientific assessment evaluation will be taken up by the risk managers, the European Commission, to transform it into legislation. They would basically decide the substance is authorised for this and that use, this type of percentage. 
So, actually, the example that you mentioned, the feta cheese, which I also liked to have on the barbecue, is not the ideal food to put into aluminum foil and put it on the barbecue for the consumers.  

Edward Bray (05:50)
What else have you got?

Katharina Volk (05:52)
Then, as the second item I brought aluminum foil. Where would you use it, in the barbecue context?

Edward Bray (06:00)
Aluminum foil is something that I would use for wrapping food particularly, and it's great because it keeps things warm, and it is good for transferring the heat from through the material into the food.

Katharina Volk (06:16)
Exactly, yeah. I was thinking about two kinds of uses. The first one is more in the preparation. So, for example, you prepare skewers, or you prepare vegetables, you cut them and then you put them back into the fridge to store them. So, maybe you would use some aluminum foil just to cover it while you store it in the fridge. 
The other use, indeed, is the one where you wrap food. Often when you go to barbecues, you would see people having vegetables wrapped in aluminum foil or cheese and then put that one on the barbecue directly. So, these are the two main uses that I thought about in the barbecue context.

Edward Bray (06:52)
Something I always liked was cheese, like feta cheese with peppers, then put in a foil and heat it. But I understand from checking on the label there are some instructions actually about the use and what kind of foods that aluminum foil can be used for, and best to avoid actually, so, can you talk about that?

Katharina Volk (07:15)
Yes, exactly. I mean, we just saw the packaging before, and it's actually important for the consumer, not only for aluminum foil, but also for other food contact materials to check the packaging to see specific instructions. For the aluminum foil specifically, there is an indication not to use it with very acidic or very salty food. So, actually, the example that you mentioned, the feta cheese, which I personally also liked to have on the barbecue, it's not the ideal food to put into aluminum foil and put it on the barbecue, because it's both acidic and salty.

Edward Bray (07:49)
The same goes for fish, I imagine. Better not to use the foil.

Katharina Volk (07:53)
Yes. For fish, for example, often you use also sliced lemon to give an additional flavour aspect, and also optical aspect. That for sure is very acidic.

Edward Bray (08:05)
You are making me hungry already. Katharina. You've got one more thing, so let's get this out as well.

Katharina Volk (08:10)
Okay. The last item that I brought is the glass bowl. Then we have a specific cover on top. You may also guess the material there.

Edward Bray (08:23)
This feels like some kind of wood, and then underneath this feels strong glass. I can see the labels underneath one with a glass and a fork, so that it's okay for food contact.

Katharina Volk (08:30)
Exactly. That's the official food contact logo.

Edward Bray (08:39)
Okay. So, this is something that we would use for leftovers, presumably after the barbecue.

Katharina Volk (08:45)
Yes, or also in the preparation, when you prepare some kind of meat, and you want to marinate it. I could imagine to put the meat inside the bowl and then to store it in the fridge.

Edward Bray (08:56)
Okay, and are there specific food considerations when it comes to this?

Katharina Volk (09:10)
Yes. Glass it's not a material that is regulated at EU level, actually. So, it's not within the remit of EFSA. But in general, we can say that glass is quite an inert material. So, there is not a big risk of migration from substances. That's why it's also rather popular for using it with any kind of food, actually.

Edward Bray (09:19)
Right, it's super wide to use glass. I've also got a couple of things, actually. I'm going to surprise you first with this, which is simple. You can have a look at that.

Katharina Volk (09:31)
Here we have a paper towel, basically, and it's not printed. When you go to the supermarket often you find also the ones that are printed with very colourful drawings on them. There you have to consider that the part that is printed should not be in contact, basically, with the food. This one here seems fine because it's not printed on either of the sides. Good for the use.

Edward Bray (10:01)
I have to say, this is something that I found out relatively recently, that there are different forms of paper towel, even only for industrial use and not for food use, and that there are two sides. Now I start to flip over to the other side to ensure that the printed side isn't… okay. I've got two more things. Now, these are quite often used for barbecue for meat, so I'll let you have a look at that.

Katharina Volk (10:26)
This is indeed a wooden tool, a wooden article that you could use to prepare skewers, for example with meat or also with vegetables. This is also food contact material, wood, that is not regulated at EU level. It's wood, it's a natural product. It's not really considered inert, I have to say. And there, we need to pay attention to possible migration of substances from this type of article. 
Also wood, it's not a very good transmitter of heat so there you need to pay attention when you grill things with the wooden skewer that you need to keep it on the barbecue for enough time so that you ensure that everything is heated through properly, actually.

Edward Bray (11:10)
In that case, maybe metal skewers, they do that job better because it transfers through the food better.

Katharina Volk (11:16)
Yes, and metals are also considered inert, or more inert as materials, so that helps with reduced migration.

Edward Bray (11:25)
The last one we've looked at a bit already, but these different types of tongs are of a different material.

Katharina Volk (11:32)
I think these ones could be wood or maybe even bamboo tongs, and the same use as you described before. It's basically to flip around the meat or the vegetables that you have. As I said before for the skewers, they are not regulated on EU level, but possibly in each of the member states there could be specific rules for these articles.

Edward Bray (11:55)
Okay. So, we've looked at some of the utensils. We've looked at how you use some on the barbecue, some of the food safety issues. I wanted to do a quick question round for you, a quiz, if you're okay with that. So, the first question: some of these are about food safety, but some of them are not. The first question is your barbecue preference, actually. What do you prefer, gas barbecue with barbecue or char grill?

Katharina Volk (12:22)
Char grill.

Edward Bray (12:24)
Okay, for a specific reason?

Katharina Volk (12:26)
I think it's just the one that I'm most familiar with, that I grew up with, and it's kind of more sentimental memory than the others.

Edward Bray (12:34)
Okay, but the purists, maybe, would head towards the char grill. Your top barbecue dish?

Katharina Volk (12:42)
I would say the grilled feta, I like that one a lot. It's one of my favourites.

Edward Bray (12:47)
Okay, me too. And a top barbecue tip for the cooking, or preparation?

Katharina Volk (12:51)
Not so much about the preparation, but what I like is to mix the things up with the side dishes, actually, because the meat it's usually always the same, you have chicken or pork, whatever, but then you can prepare nice salads along with it, so you can always find nice combinations. I enjoy that as part of the buffet that you have during the barbecue, to try different salads and side dishes with it.

Edward Bray (13:13)
Nice. People often think of meat, but actually, with barbecue you can enjoy any dish, essentially. The last one, your top barbecue food safety tip?

Katharina Volk (13:24)
The top safety tip I would say is about the hygiene. We touched upon that already before, when I had the skewers. When you mix vegetables and meat, there you need to be really careful to avoid cross-contamination that could be possibly from the meat. 
Often when we speak about chicken, we think about salmonella, and there we need to be really careful, in the handling of the meat separately from the vegetables. This is top tip, to be careful in handling the preparation, and to apply proper hygiene, like washing your hands often, using separate cutting board, separate knives for the handling of the food.

Edward Bray (14:02)
Let's talk a bit more about these other food safety aspects, like you mentioned. One thing that struck me often is that you can take your barbecue and have your own barbecue, but often there are public barbecues outside, and sometimes the grill is being used by many people, and you can see the residues of various things through the ages on the grill. I always think, is that safe? What should you be doing there in those situations?

Katharina Volk (14:27)
I think especially in the public places, it's good that you give it another clean, for sure. There are these brushes with which you can really manipulate the barbecue well. Another tip could also be to use trays instead of putting the meat or the vegetables directly on the barbecue. Use trays. There are those made of stainless steel, for example. Metal alloy, again, that are more inert than using, for example, aluminum trays. This could be a tip, when you go to public spaces for doing barbecue.

Edward Bray (14:58)
Okay, and what about the cooking process itself, and the type of foods used? Are there some kind of considerations there as well? Sometimes you see the fat dripping down, and then you will have flames coming up and flaming the meat. I remember when I was little, my dad would be cooking. It was mostly my dad. I remember the flames sometimes coming up high. What kind of considerations are there, in terms of the food safety?

Katharina Volk (15:25)
Yes, indeed. It's quite important, actually. The example that you mentioned, when the fat drips down into the charcoal that you have, or if you have an electric barbecue or the heating coil. This is something that should be avoided as much as possible because with this type of procedure, substances can be created that have concern for carcinogenicity. There are, for example, the polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons that can be formed in this process. So, if you use for example, again, trays, this can be avoided because the fat will not down into the heating part of the barbecue.

Edward Bray (16:03)
Right, that's interesting. So, to avoid actually that the flames come up, or to have a system to avoid that.

Katharina Volk (16:12)
Exactly. Also, I mean, if you overheat the meat. If you have sausages or meat, you keep them on the barbecue for a very long time, it can also lead to the generation of other type of chemicals that also have a concern for carcinogenicity, for example. There are for sure aspects related, I would say, especially to the handling of food from animal origin, like meat or fish, that you have to take into account when you do the barbecue.

Edward Bray (16:38)
I was looking earlier that the term barbecue actually comes from a Spanish word, barbacoa, which comes from indigenous people from the Caribbean. Then, this tradition was picked up from there, and it's essentially spread throughout the world. For them at the time, barbacoa was about the system of having sticks, and then sticks laid across, and then the food cooked or smoked on the top. Since then, there were variations, it seems, of barbecue around the world, particularly in the Americas, when you think of Brazil and Argentina.

Katharina Volk (17:10)
Exactly, yes. They have a very strong tradition there of barbecuing with these huge metal skewers.

Edward Bray (17:16)
You were saying in Germany, it's become a big tradition.

Katharina Volk (17:21)
Yes, for sure. In summer it's one of the things that people love to do there. Very big tradition, different types of barbecues, many different dishes to prepare.

Edward Bray (17:30)
The other thing I was thinking about is that a lot of the cooking pots that we use for maybe mixing a salad or for doing other things, we become quite sentimental with our equipment, even our barbecue equipment, actually. I know that you have fond memories that you've had with friends and family, and you like your particular implement, but over time it gets scratched, it gets used. I imagine that you need to think about that, correct?

Katharina Volk (17:58)
Yes, especially I would say for cutting boards. This is something that would come to my mind first. The plastic cutting boards that you use over several years and at a certain moment you can see all the cuts in the surface: then it's time to get a new one, at a certain moment, so that to avoid that also you have release of small particles, for example. Or you scratch the surface and then, substances from the inside, they leak into the food. So yes, for sure to pay attention to how long you use the articles.

Edward Bray (18:27)
Is that something now, through your work, that you think more about if you're having a barbecue?

Katharina Volk (18:33)
Yes, for sure. I think especially with the aluminum foil, I'm more cautious, I would say. I did not think about that so much in the past when preparing the fish or cheese in the aluminum foil. But, for sure now I think more about it.

Edward Bray (18:46)
Okay. Well, thank you so much for joining us, Katharina. It was really interesting discussing barbecue with you. I wish, you know, we're almost in holiday season… if you have barbecues, I hope you have happy and safe ones.

Katharina Volk (19:00)
Thank you. It was a pleasure to be here and to discuss this.

Edward Bray (19:04)
Listeners and viewers, thank you very much for joining us. I hope you enjoy your barbecues as they come up. Until next time, it's goodbye from us.